Quotes of the Day

Since becoming Hong Kong's number two-ranking Catholic prelate in 1996, Bishop Joseph Zen has been an advocate for human rights and religious freedom. Following last month's death of Cardinal John Wu, Zen now leads the city's 227,000 Catholics—and he tells TIME's Bryan Walsh he doesn't plan to pipe down.

Do you feel any pressure to mute your criticism of the government?
Before, I was just assistant bishop, but now I'm the bishop, so maybe I have to be a little more indirect.

How do you respond to critics who say that clerics should stay out of politics?
We don't like to call it politics. It's human rights, it's basic rights, it's not politics.

You've been effectively banned from mainland China since 1998. Do you think you'll be able to visit any time soon?
No, I don't, because I'm not just going for sightseeing. If I go I want to visit seminaries and bishops and I don't think at this moment Beijing is ready for that.

Why does Beijing seem to be so afraid of the Catholic Church and other spiritual movements?
They are afraid of everything they cannot control. They want to control everything.

Do you maintain any ties to the underground Catholic church on the mainland, and do you believe the Vatican should attempt to aid the underground church?
For us, the underground church was the lawful church because it was united with the Holy Father. Those other people, who followed the government in running the independent church, they were not in the right tradition because they were separated from Rome. So we had a very clear division of the two parts. Then, little by little, we had the chance to see the reality that even those in the so-called official church were much attached to Rome in their hearts. On the occasion of my ordination as bishop, I told people clearly that we consider both the underground church and the official church as our brothers. But actually it's not that easy to help the underground, and it's becoming more difficult.

So you are not very optimistic about Beijing and the Vatican reaching some kind of agreement where there wouldn't be any need for this kind of division?
I'm not optimistic at this moment because they are tightening. You can see Beijing has no intention of making any concessions. They will not grant any freedom to the Church.

What effect do you believe the proposed Article 23 legislation will have on political freedom in Hong Kong?
It worries me very much because I think if it becomes the law, it will finish our freedom. It's very, very dangerous. I don't think Hong Kong needs such a law. Why don't we start talking about the pace of democracy? That's more urgent than Article 23.

Hong Kong is experiencing a high suicide rate and high unemployment. Do you feel that the city itself is suffering a serious depression?
Yes, it's very, very worrying. In the 1950s, we were very poor, but still we had this fighting spirit, so we made progress because we had a goal and we saw that we were reaching that goal. But now we have fallen and it's much more difficult to climb up again.

Not long ago, a newspaper quoted you as describing Hong Kong Chief Executive Tung Chee-Hwa and other leaders as "toadying." Is that how you feel?
I told the reporter that I'm very unhappy. I said there are people who are doing stupid things to please Beijing, and maybe Beijing never told them to do such things. I'm not blaming Beijing, I'm not blaming Mr. Tung, I'm blaming these people.

Do you think Pope John Paul II will ever get a chance to visit Hong Kong?
I don't think so because his health is deteriorating. It was unfortunate that when he asked a few years ago, Beijing said no. He could have come and everyone would have gained. Beijing had nothing to lose. I don't know why they are so nervous.

• BRYAN WALSH
• TIME Talks to Hong Kong's outspoken new Catholic leader